Ron: Hello and welcome to another Flashback Favourites episode of Stereo Geeks. I'm Ron.
Mon: And I'm Mon.
Ron: Today, we’re talking about Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse.
Mon: This episode is going to be full of spoilers. So, if you haven't watched this movie, why not?
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Ron: What is Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse about?
The story follows Miles Morales, voiced by Shameik Moore as he becomes a new Spider-Man. Parallel to this plot, is Wilson Fisk voiced by Liev Schreiber, opening up portals into other dimensions, which brings in other Spider-People from alternate universes. All the Spider-People have to work together to stop Wilson Fisk, save the world and return to their own dimension.
Mon: We’ve seen Into the Spider-Verse four times, which, for us, is a lot.
It's a great combination of bringing a comic book property which a lot of people aren't familiar with, but also bringing in that ethos, that Expanded Universe feel that we all love. And the best thing is that this Spider-Man is so different but also similar to all other Spider-Men that we have had before.
Ron: Miles Morales is really relatable. We’re introduced to him humming/singing a song—which is so much fun—Sunflower by Post Malone. And that's something that everybody does. We’ve all done it! It immediately makes that connection between the audience and Miles, and that carries throughout the entire film.
Mon: Yeah! When we meet Miles in the film, he's just been enrolled in this prestigious academy. He's convinced that he's just the diversity hire, but in fact, he is a genius. He's very smart, but he really needs to apply himself in this new place and it's work, work, work all the time. It's very different from his old life.
There's a part of him that, obviously, wants to go back to how things used to be, which is natural. He's a teenager, he probably misses his friends. And he doesn't get to be at home that often. So, the film really pulls us into Miles’ universe, as well makes him this very relatable kind of character. And we can all sort of see parts of ourselves in him, even though we are across different ages.
And then Miles sees something that, well, it's scarring. He basically sees the death of his universe’s Spider-Man. Around the same time, he's bitten by a radioactive spider, and he's just discovering his own path. So, we've got these classic, heroic Spider-Man elements, but they're on Miles.
Ron: Yeah, I love that we get this origin story for Miles, while we're also getting to know all these other Spider-People. And then we get the mentor-mentee relationship with Peter B. Parker and Miles.
There are these really sweet moments between Miles and the Spider-People, but also more importantly, between Miles and his own family. A lot of the time—and this is probably one of the biggest failings of Peter Parker in the Marvel Cinematic Universe—we don't really get that much of Peter and his own family. We see that he's really fond of his Aunt May, but it's more like a protective kind of thing. She's a bit of a quirky, kookie aunt. We get very little idea of his bond with his Uncle Benjamin. It’s kind of riding on people's past knowledge of the character from the films and the comic books. If you're coming in as a brand-new person who hasn't got that knowledge, it's putting a lot of pressure on you to find that information out.
Whereas, with Miles, you see that his parents are fond of him. His mom dotes on him, his dad is crazy about him. That hilarious opening scene where Miles’ dad picks him up in his cop car and drops him off at his school and then insists, using the loudspeaker, that Miles proclaim that he loves his dad. It is so so cringe. But you’re like… you totally get it. His parents love him.
Mon: When we recently re-watched this film, remember I was telling you that Miles is cringing now, but 20 years later Miles is going to look back at this moment and he's gonna love it. And he's gonna be so happy that his dad really, really wanted to show how much they love each other. It’s just so cute.
Ron: And you can see that, you know, everybody in his school has noticed this particular event. People keep teasing him about it throughout the day. Yeah, right now, Miles is feeling a bit like ‘oh gosh, why?’. But as you said, he will love this moment later on. And by the end of the film, it's something that he does come back to, and he tells his father that he loves him.
But there’s another relationship that we get to see which is really, really sweet, and that is between Miles and his Uncle Aaron, voiced by Mahershala Ali, who is soon going to be playing Blade. Not sure when that's gonna happen, but we'll wait. And that's a really cute bond in the movie.
We’re used to the Peter Parker-Ben Parker relationship, and it’s great to see a different character have that kind of bond with his uncle. And Aaron gets a whole arc of his own. He's great as Miles’ uncle—he loves Miles, he lets him do all the crazy stuff. He takes him to graffiti this particular area that he’s found. We can assume that he found it while scoping the joint for Wilson Fisk, who we learn Aaron is actually working for, as the Prowler. But it's a really sweet bond and it's something different from what Miles has with his parents.
Mon: With Uncle Aaron, he's this doting uncle who really lets Miles be himself and do whatever he wants. But Aaron isn't there as a foil to Miles’ parents. He's there to encourage Miles to think outside the box. So, I like that Aaron is a really positive influence in Miles’ life, even though he turns out to be a bad guy.
Ron: You can see how Aaron and Miles’ dad, Jefferson, probably were always destined for different paths. When we see their phone screens, you see that both Jefferson and Aaron have pictures of themselves together—you realize that that bond is there, it's just that because their paths have diverged so drastically that they can't have that relationship. But they're still being able to have something of a bond because of Miles.
Mon: There are a lot elements in Miles’ story which are similar or throwbacks to Peter Parker’s. But, at the same time they have their own angle. And the fact that Miles is half-Black-half-Puerto Rican, it gives us a hero story for a wider audience.
Ron: This is always going to be an issue with the comics universe. It has been very largely white and male. When we get any kind of representation that's outside of that very narrow focus, we're excited. We see ourselves in Miles even though we're not sharing the same kind of heritage.
Mon: It's because Miles goes beyond just being a few labels. He's a very relatable character and that's exactly what Spider-Man is meant to be.
In the comics, Spider-Man was always the little guy. He was the underdog who was fighting for everyone. I would say that all adaptations of Spider-Man continue in the same vein. For a lot of people what they find with the MCU Spider-Man is that he has the backing of Tony Stark—he has all that tech and the entire Avengers behind him, so he doesn't seem relatable in the way that the comics do.
Miles brings that in. He brings it in exactly the way that people who grew up reading Spider-Man will feel when they're watching him.
Ron: Yeah, that's definitely what makes Miles so memorable in this film and makes us want to see even more of this particular Miles and the universe they've created.
But let's move away from Miles, which is hard. With such a great protagonist, you want to focus on him. We get a lot of other Spider-People—we get Gwen Stacy from another universe and she's Spider-Woman in her dimension. Voiced by Hailee Steinfeld, this Spider-Woman is sadder, she’is lonely.
She got the spider-bite two years ago and she's been Spider-Woman ever since, but she also lost her friend in the past. So, for her, finding other Spider-People is an enormous relief. Just having other people around her who understand what it means to get that spider-bite, to become a hero, to fight for the city, and more importantly, to keep that duality of their actual identity and their spider-persona, that's a huge boon for her.
And the relationship between Gwen and Miles is really quite sweet. They end up in the same school because Gwen’s Spider-Sense tells her that this is the place to be. And she obviously forms a bond with him, which is not the best way to meet somebody, but hey, we take our Spider-Friends as we get them.
But yeah, it’s a sweet relationship and I like that it doesn't become romantic immediately. I always find that so frustrating because if you shoehorn in a romance, the problem is that it adds a different level to a relationship within a story. And when you have a story like this which is quite densely packed, there's a lot happening, adding a romantic encounter becomes just too much. I like that they decide to be friends.
Mon: At the end of the day, Gwen's journey is to come out of her shell and accept friendship again, which is something that she's closed herself off from, because of what happened in her dimension.
And I agree with you that adding a romantic element would be too much, too soon, especially in a plot-heavy story like this one.
Ron: And when there's so much at stake. Gwen can't stay in this universe. Her entire goal here is to get back to her own dimension, even though it will continue to be a lonely existence, but at least she's opened herself up to the possibility of finding new friends. She didn't have that when she was still on her Earth. A romance really wouldn't have worked.
We saw that on the The Flash. Kid-Flash on Earth One with Jessie Quick from Earth Two, they do try to have that relationship but eventually it does fizzle out.
Mon: Let's talk about the Spider-People. There’s Spider Noir, voiced by Nicolas Cage.
Ron: What a resurgence!
Mon: When we first saw this film, I remember I was like, ‘who is this? This such a familiar voice.’ But he really works in this character, because it's actually quite subdued. Because Spider Noir is so different from the rest of the Spider-People who are human, but yet he brings this gravitas and credibility to it. I really like the character.
Ron: I love Spider Noir. They've actually got comic book spin-off for him and yeah, definitely check it out.
Mon: So, there’s Spider-Ham who is voiced by John Mulaney. I would say that he's probably the strangest incarnation in this film. But the creators realized it and definitely used him to the minimal.
Ron: But they make the quirky work, which I liked. There's not too much hamminess, pardon the pun, but it's funny.
Mon: We also have Peni Parker, voiced by Kimiko Glenn. She doesn't have spider-powers, but she has a robot created by her father which is powered by radioactive spider. So her abilities are completely different but very integral to the plot.
So, let's talk about the main Spider-Man in this film, which is Peter B. Parker voiced by Jake Johnson. He's basically the Spider-Man we know, but different. He’s been Spider-Man for 22 years.
Spider-Man on Miles’ Earth has been in action for 10 years. He's voiced by Chris Pine and he's blond.
So, Peter B. is closer to the Spider-Man that we’re used to, but he's older. He's semi-retired because he's suffering from a heartbreak. He and Mary Jane Watson have broken up and he's really, really struggling with that.
Ron: We also learn that Peter B. Parker has lost his Aunt May. So, he's pretty much alone. Being Spider-Man has kind of lost its charm. He's saved people, and he's helped people but he still had to face these losses on his own. He's still hiding his identity. It's not been an easy life and he seems kind of depressed but unable to get any help for it. Which is not surprising—how are you going to tell your therapist that you’re depressed because you’re Spider-Man?
Mon: Yeah. So when he's drawn into this world, all he wants to do is get back. He's not interested in helping Miles with his goal, which is taking down Wilson Fisk.
Ron: He's also not as capable. He realizes very soon that Miles needs a mentor. He's lost his own Spider-Man, so he needs somebody with Peter B.’s experience to teach him the way. That's not what he wants to do. He just wants to get out of here. He definitely does not want somebody looking up to him.
Mon: Especially not a kid. As we soon realize, Peter B. and his relationship with Mary Jane dissolved because she wanted kids and he didn’t it. This is a subplot that happens with a lot of superheroes because given their lifestyle, it doesn't seem safe. So, we can understand that maybe that's why Peter B. did not want to start a family.
But at the same time, Miles is kind of a reminder of what he could do and could be and he does change his mind by the end of it, because Miles can do that to people.
Ron: I mean, it is a lot of responsibility. Peter B. does not seem in the right place for that kind of responsibility, so this particular mission ends up changing his mind because he realizes what he doesn't have and what he could have with somebody like Miles.
Mon: When I first watched this film,I felt like the biggest chink in the armor was Johnson's voicing of Peter B. Parker. I felt like he didn't bring that much gravitas to the role. And while his voice and Chris Pine’s voice [sic] are both very similar in the film, I just found that the OG-Peter had more of a punch when he was speaking, whereas with Jake Johnson, it's not that much.
That being said, three watches later, I'm fine with it.
Ron: I also felt the same way. But having seen it more times now, I feel like Jake Johnson's voice kind of works with Peter B. because it sounds older, it sounds jaded. He sounds like a mellow man.
Chris Pine’s Peter is more hopeful and younger.
Mon: He’s excitable because he's only 10 years into this and he’s only 26, so he has the world at his feet. And he's in a happy relationship and everything. But yeah, I can understand where we originally came from and why we’ve changed our minds now.
And especially because when you listen to Peter B. in conversation with Miles, it's so different because Shameik Moore is bringing so much emotion and levity to the voice. Miles is so alive and he's an animated character, but he’s popping off that screen. But, it makes more sense when you've watched it a few times.
Ron: Absolutely.
Mon: The entire voice cast is brilliant. It is not only full of these known names but they really add their own dimension to all these characters. We haven't even mentioned Doc Ock yet!
Who doesn’t love a world which has a gender-bent Doc Ock? Kathryn Hahn as Olivia Octavius, she's scary. She's scary good, but she's scary scary too. I just love this character, she's amazing.
Ron: I also love that when she's revealed as Doc Ock, she says that only her friends call her Liv. And later on, when we meet Peter’s Aunt May, she says, ‘Oh, it's Liv’. [both laugh] Are these two friends? I need to know more about this story.
Mon: Speaking of Aunt May, she’s voiced by Lily Tomlin. I really like this Aunt May, because it seems like she’s really apart of Spider-Man’s universe. We're so used to seeing Aunt May as being this frail, old Auntie who really needs help and protecting, but here, Peter Parker has an arsenal of suits and gadgets and it looks like it's basically because Aunt May is Peter's Q.
Ron: Yeah, because she makes up the suit for Miles. So, she's obviously been helping Peter for a long time now.
Mon: And she's got this edge to her, which I like, I’m totally digging.
Ron: She's amazing.
I think the only thing that I would change in Into the Spider-Verse is the way they kind of fat shame Peter B. Parker. I mean, the guy is depressed, he is lonely. Yeah, he eats a few more pizzas and he’s got a gut, do we have to keep bugging him about it?
Mon: Yeah, I think one joke, maybe Miles is like ‘oh, what’s that?’ But then it happens three or four times, so it was a little too much.
Ron: And considering that Hollywood as a whole, and especially superhero films, are so nasty about people's body sizes, I really feel like we could have done without it in this world.
Mon: Yeah, I agree with you. That's probably the biggest issue and criticism that we can have about this film.
Ron: Because the rest of the film is great and the characterizations are great! There are some moments when you’re just like, ‘wow these characters are so well thought out’.
Like when Peter B., Miles and Gwen Stacy go to see Aunt May, for Peter B. he's lost his Aunt for a long, long time. He can't wait to get out of there. He barely even waits for her to answer the door, because he just needs to leave. And he finally says, ‘I'm not ready for this’. And we understand how Aunt May is shocked when she sees a version of her Peter standing in front of her, but for him, it's just as devastating to see somebody who he’s lost.
At the same time we got a more quirky scene later on where Peter B. sees this world’s Mary Jane. And yes, she's younger, she's different from the Mary Jane of his world, but he cannot get over the fact that this is Mary Jane and he really needs to speak to her.
Mon: He, sort of, uses this Mary Jane as a proxy for venting all the feelings and emotions that he has for his own one. And it's so funny because she's essentially asking for bread…
Ron: And he's a waiter.
Mon: And he's just going on and on about how he's failed her, he's disappointed her. And she's like, ‘what?’.
Ron: ‘It's only bread’.
Mon: It's just so funny. It's like these moments which are so tinged with emotion but also levity and they just do it perfectly time and time again.
Ron: And there are so many laugh out loud moments in this film and that really helps, because there are some devastating moments as well.
Like, we’ve already mentioned Peter B. meeting Aunt May, but Miles loses his Uncle right in front of him. And that entire sequence is so so sad, because we've already seen how much Miles loves his Uncle Aaron, and he also obviously loves his nephew as much. For them to be on opposite sides, and for Aaron to be killed just as he is realizing that Miles has become Spider-Man and that the two of them need to figure this out, it’s just an awful way for that entire sequence to go down.
And then when Jefferson comes to tell Miles, he can't really speak to Miles because Miles has been tied up by the Spider-People so that he does not get into any more trouble. So, Jefferson kind of goes about it very differently and he doesn't come out with what happens but he just tries to tell Miles that they're there for him, because they don't want Miles to end up going down the same pathway that Aaron did, which ended up in Aaron dying. It's a really touching scene.
And the two of them on the two different sides of the door, feeling this particular loss so strongly but not be able to communicate it, it just gets me every time I see it.
Mon: Yeah, this entire film is quite a rollercoaster ride, but it never feels like anything is too contrived.
Which is funny because this is an animated film with a whole bunch of Spider-People. But yeah, it just really understands the human condition.
Ron: When you're invested in the characters, you become more interested in everything that's happening in the film. And we haven't even talked about Wilson Fisk yet.
Yeah, he's the bad guy. But why is he doing what he's doing? We figure out that Wilson Fisk as strong and powerful and scary as he is, he had a family. And he lost that family because of the person he was. He's conducting these experiments with Doc Ock in the hopes that he will be able to get a version of his family from another universe.
And as I was watching this for the fourth time, I realized that Fisk is never going to get what he wants, not because the Spider-People are going to stop him—which they do—but because even if he does succeed, the version of his wife and son that he will get are never going to be his wife and son. They're going to be another Wilson Fisk's wife and son. And also, as we figure out, the alternative dimension Spider-people, they can't actually stay here, they start glitching. And the longer they stay, the more dangerous it becomes. And they finally figure out that if they stay too long, they will die. So, Fisk is never going to get what he wants, but he's so desperate. And what I realized was that it's not just desperation to have a family again, it’s desperation for that redemption that he's never gonna get.
Mon: So, with Fisk, the reason he lost his family is because they caught him fighting Spider-Man, and they rushed out and were in a car accident. The thing is, his need for redemption comes from the fact that he knows that he's responsible. It’s that guilt that is driving him to do these experiments over and over again, even though it is harmful for his city.
I think that, that just makes such a great character, because it's not just fridging the dead wife. It’s the fact that we know that he's a bad guy, he knows he's a bad guy and this is the one thing that he's lost and he needs it back. And the layers of knowing that he's never gonna get what he wants, makes the story even more powerful.
Ron: Every character is so well thought out in this film that you just can't not watch it again and again, because every time I've watched this film I found a new layer to another character. That's great! Because that's what you want in a superhero film, that rewatchability and to spend more time with people that you’ve ended up really caring about.
Mon: It's so easy, especially with genre films, to get wrapped up in spectacle and for far too long genre films only relied on spectacle. But in this film, you know from the very instance that it begins that you're going to be invested in the characters. And the story comes second, the gimmicks come third.
Ron: Gimmickry could have easily been the leading force for this film. There are so many different animation styles working in this film because of all the different universes. You've got Miles’ universe, You’ve got Peter B.'s universe; you've got Gwen Stacy's universe. You've got Spider Noir’s black and white world; you've got Spider-Ham’s 2D animation; you’ve got Peni Parker, who's from the anime universe. That's a lot and that's why it took this film so long to be made.
But all these different animation styles make it even more beautiful to watch. It doesn’t take away from the actual story or the characters. That’s what I love.
Mon: The combination of all these animation techniques add layers to the story and the plot, while the writing has added layers to each of the characters.
What I really loved about the animation is that it brings this vibrancy that we are so not used to seeing, even in animation. I mean, you can understand why it took them, what, four years to bring this movie to life. Every time we look there's something else that you find in the corner here or the corner there, because it's so artistic, and these aesthetics are from the comic book world, but for the screen. So, this is poetry in motion, quite literally.
Ron: Absolutely.
Mon: I mean I just love looking at this film; each frame can be a canvas that you can hang on your walls. It's amazing.
And it's no wonder that this film ended up getting the Oscar for Best Animated Film, it would have been an absolute travesty had it not.
Ron: Because Into the Spider-Verse brings together everything that we love about genre films, superhero films, and animation films, but it also does this amazing thing of appealing to a variety of audiences. It doesn't matter what age you are, you're going to love this film, and that's great.
Mon: Every time you see these Twitter watch parties or something, people are just going out of their minds with new things that they’ve found or new little Easter Eggs, and that’s why everybody loves this film. It's hard not to, because it's just such an incredible world full of incredible characters.
And we haven’t even come to the music and the songs.
Ron: So good, so good. I have listened to this soundtrack and score so much since I first watched the movie. I think my Spotify is bored of me.
Mon: What I like about the soundtrack is that it leans into the fact that Miles has mixed heritage, so there's a lot of songs by hip hop, rap R&B stars, and they really definitely add to Miles’ story. It’s incredible.
Especially the ‘leap of faith’ scene, and the ‘shoulder touch’ scene. Both of them, they’re incredible scenes, but the music and the score just add a whole new dimension to how you feel about those scenes.
Ron: Everything works so synchronously in this film. It's a masterpiece honestly.
Mon: And we don't use that word lightly, but I can't argue with that. Having watched it four times in two years, and to really enjoy it every time we watch it, that's what surprises me.
The last scene of the film definitely suggest that there's going to be a sequel. Now, we do know that there is a sequel planned for 2022. We're not entirely sure which angle they're gonna go with. It seems that they're going to bring in the Spider-People again. Let's just hope that it lives up to the layers of storytelling and characterization that it does in this film.
I'm looking forward to seeing these characters again, for sure. And I'm curious to know if Spider-Man 2099 is also going to be there.
Ron: We do get to see him, and it does seem to suggest that he has a dimension-hopping device with him. Whether that means that he's going to appear in the next film, we don't know. Voiced by Oscar Isaac, this is a character we definitely want to see. It will be fun to see the Spider-People that we already know make some new friends and add some new abilities to their arsenal.
Mon: I'm just glad that we got this film, and that it was received so well, not only was it critically appraised, but fans loved it, it was big in the box office. It's so rewatchable that I'm pretty sure Sony is making lots of money. Because stories like this, they need to be told, because they're a completely different perspective, completely different audience, and it expands who can watch,s enjoy and see themselves in these superhero films.
What I will say is that given the kind of strobe lighting and animation, for some people you might enjoy this film more as a home viewing experience, rather than on the big screen.
When we first saw it on the big screen, there's so much coming at you, it's a little too much stimulus. When you watch it in the comfort of your own home, you might be able to enjoy it even more.
Ron: I agree with you. The first time I watched it, I found it a bit too much. I wasn't able to concentrate on everything that was happening. But when I watched it again on a smaller screen, I felt like I could really appreciate the details.
Mon: Yeah, it’s not so overwhelming.
Ron: But this has been such a great film to go back to. And every time I've watched it, it's just been like meeting old friends, but also finding new characteristics and new details. It's been a wonderful experience, and I can't wait for the sequel.
What did you love about Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse? We'd love to hear from you.
Ron: You can find us on Twitter @Stereo_Geeks. Or send us an email [email protected]. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And see you next week!
Mon: The Stereo Geeks logo was created using Canva. The music for our podcast comes courtesy Audionautix.
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Transcription by Otter.ai and Mon.