Ron: Welcome to a new Stereo Geeks special. Today we're talking about Black Widow. I'm Ron
Mon: And I'm Mon.
This review is going to be in two parts. We'll first talk about the non spoilery review and mentioned what we liked, what we didn't, etc. And then we go into the spoilers. Don't worry, we'll let you know in advance.
[Music continues]
Ron: Let's just start off by saying we were worried about this film, mainly because Marvel has been really weird about the whole female-lead-in-a-movie thing. Captain Marvel was a success, we enjoyed ourselves. I know a lot of people have had problems with it, but we've been waiting a long time for the follow up. Black Widow was slated to come out in 2020, then the pandemic happened. We kept getting a new date, another new date, another new date. But finally, Black Widow is here. And of course you had to watch it, because it's a Marvel movie.
So Black Widow actually takes place straight after Civil War-
Mon: Which was a surprise.
Ron: Not what I expected. If kinda works, because we see what Black Widow had to do to survive while the Avengers were breaking up. It wasn't exactly easy but turns out she had a lot of red in her ledger that she had to wipe out, and she found some unlikely people to help her do it. That's pretty much what the movie is about.
The thing is, you and I didn't watch any trailers, didn't look at any gifs, didn’t read any reviews, so we went in there blind. And I think that was the best thing we could have done.
Mon: I completely agree with you because everything was a surprise, and that's the whole point of watching the movie. I think nowadays, especially with Marvel, they do so many promos and trailers and behind the scenes and blah, blah. I feel like you always see the best bits before the film is even out. And it's tough for the two of us to really avoid all these spoilery things, but we did a great job, and that helped us enjoy the movie a lot more.
Ron: I 100% agree. Not knowing what is going to happen made this entire film a really really fun experience. And that's actually what I really enjoyed about it because I didn't know that it was set during the period between Civil War and Infinity War. I didn't know what Natasha was going to be doing. We just knew that it was going to have Black Widow in it.
It opens in a very strange way, you don't even have any inkling that you're watching a Marvel movie; that we're watching a superhero film, nothing like that. It's just a sweet family, hanging out together, and then everything goes nuts. But from the very opening scene, I realized that this is not going to be like every other Marvel movie. And that is a good thing.
Mon: Well, it kicks off in the 90s and I have to say that the entire vibe of the film for me anyway felt like the 90s. It has opening credits. It has a very action movie kind of feel. It doesn't feel like a Marvel film.
Ron: I didn't exactly get the 90s vibe from it. I did get the action movie, almost Bourne trilogy like feel, and I really enjoyed that because this is a really heavy action film. There is action scene after action scene – if it's not a fight, it's a chase. If it's not an airplane chase, it's a car chase or a bike chase, something is always happening. But I also like the fact that the film takes a few minutes every now and then to just stop and let characters talk to each other because we get to know them, we get to know where they've come from, what they're doing, and we need to start asking ourselves, ‘do I trust this person?’ And when your protagonist is a spy assassin, that's kind of an important question.
Mon: Well, I find it interesting that you actually like the quiet moments - and there's nothing wrong with them - but I felt like they fell into the quintessential Marvel trap of slowing down the pace. And also being a little bit expository.
Ron: How interesting. I don't know whether I just didn't see it like that, or I got so into the action that I didn't feel that way. But I kind of liked them.
Mon: I agree that they did a great job of using those quiet moments to build on the character dynamics and also develop the characters, which worked for me. I just felt like maybe some of the scenes were overlong. Perhaps if they had been better interwoven with action, it would have worked for me better.
Ron: We'll have to disagree on this one because I thought the pacing was fine. And I was actually surprised because, usually with Marvel films, as well put together as they are, sometimes when they're doing the exposition thing, it's a bit obvious. I just felt like it was more organic in this one. It wasn't just people talking at each other, they were having a conversation, they were disagreeing, they were agreeing, they were coming to a conclusion about something, and it was all through a conversation that pretty much tells you exactly what's supposed to be happening, but it's not forced. And I really liked that.
Mon: I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Ron: So we have a lot of characters here. Aside from Natasha Romanoff aka Black Widow played by Scarlett Johansson, we also meet Yelena Belova, played by Florence Pugh. Now this is a fellow widow who we find out later has a connection to Natasha Romanoff. I wasn't quite sure what to expect. I'm never sure when there are new characters being introduced, especially if they already have some kind of history with our protagonists, but she was a really good addition. I'm actually excited to have her in the Marvel Universe. She had excellent chemistry get Scarlett Johansson; the two characters, they worked extremely well together. You felt that they had had these meetings for years and years, even though this was the first time you were meeting Yelena. A really great addition.
Mon: Yeah, I like this character a lot. I was a little bit concerned initially, because, you know, as soon as somebody is super hyped, I get a little bit concerned about how they will actually turn out. But Florence Pugh as Yelena, she really seemed to be enjoying this character. She has this snarky yet, brooding backstory. And I think… I feel like we're so used to getting a lot of male characters like that, so it's nice to see a female character like that. And she has cool action scenes as well.
Then we have Rachel Weisz as Melina, and we have David Harbour, as Alexei. Interesting characters.
Ron: Very unexpected.
Mon: But compelling. David Harbour really seems to be enjoying himself playing this character. He's having a moment here. He is capitalizing on his newfound success thanks to Stranger Things. This character is very different, which is fine, but I feel like he really embodied it. He's a bit of a scene stealer from time to time.
Ron: I felt like David Harbour came into this character knowing so much about him, and you get that from his scenes. He doesn't need to tell you much. He just is Alexei, and it was a lot of fun watching him. I also feel like his character was quite needed in this film. It can get a bit heavy. There's a lot of loss and fear and pain and suffering - you need somebody will just break the tension, and David Harbour did that excellently.
He also had really good chemistry with Rachel Weisz. Again, the same thing with Scarlett Johansson and Florence Pugh. You felt like David Harbour and Rachel Weisz’s characters had been connected to each other for years and years, even though, again, we were meeting them for the very first time here.
Rachel Weisz, I am a fan, and I thought she was great.
Mon: Yeah, we could have actually done with more scenes with her.
Ron: Yeah, I agree. I think she could have been a bigger part of this film. When she does come in, she fits in really well, and she adds a great deal of depth to the story, and to the character dynamics.
What did you think about the villain? Ray Winstone’s Dreykov.
Mon: I'm glad he wasn't in the film as much. He's definitely one of those villains who has more of an impact than he has a presence. I think in any other director’s hands, he might have been like, overly sleazy or gross. He's just the right kind of eww in this movie. I think he was more of a catalyst than he was a villain - like he was doing bad things, or he was getting bad things done, but I feel like he wasn't there enough. Which, honestly, is a good thing. I didn't want him to be there.
Ron: I agree with you. With a villain like this, who has real world repercussions in many ways, you don't want to see him. You can already see from our protagonists the kind of impact that he has had. You don't want to spend any more time than is absolutely necessary. I think the scenes that we did get with him, they were short, sharp, to the point, they actually work to better enhance our understanding of the protagonists than him, which is perfectly fine. That's all I wanted. I don't want to hang out with this guy.
Mon: It was a smart move for him to have such a small role, because I think we're also very used to watching a lot of films with villains exactly like this, who are sort of larger than life and they have lots of scenes, they're like living it up. And we don't want anybody to empathize, or even aspire to be somebody like this, because you know, he's rich, he's got a facility, he's got all these people working for him. We don't want people to be like ‘oh you know, I wouldn't be a bad guy but I want to be like him’. Which, honestly happens a lot in action films.
Ron: I agree, he's very much like a Bond villain.
Mon: Oh, that's what he's like. Yeah.
Ron: So, you get this very Bloefeld-like vibe from him or Goldfinger, that kind of thing. But those villains in the Bond films, they kind of stand out on their own. This guy, he's a bit of an enigma. We keep getting glimpses of him - we have one kind of story about him from Black Widow, and a completely different one from everybody else. And then finally when we get to meet him, then it's just like, you know what this is all you need.
Mon: Were you surprised that Black Widow had a Q of her own?
Ron: Yeah, I didn't expect that. It was actually kind of fun and really lent into that Bond/ Bourne vibe of the film. I think it would have been fun if we’d got Black Widow, the film, seven/eight years ago, when people were asking for it. I just don't understand why it took this long, and why this particular story was the focus of it. It feels very much like an origin story…
Mon: But whose origin story? Because I feel like there are four protagonists in this film.
Ron: Yes.
Mon: And there were times when I felt like Black Widow was being benched in her own film.
Ron: Okay, that's true.
Mon: And this is the problem with somebody getting a solo film when she's had almost 10 years in the game. This is also the problem when you are introducing new and compelling characters with really good actors. They're going to steal the scene. There were definitely significant portions where I was like okay so this is not just a Black Widow film.
But, also, is this a Marvel thing? Have you noticed how there are some solo characters whose films frequently end up feeling like Avengers 1.5, or Avengers 2.5? It happened with Captain America, so I guess he shouldn't be surprised that Black idow kinda got the same treatment.
Ron: That's an interesting point. But I think, in a way, with the characters that we meet here, especially with someone like Mason, played by O-T Fagbenle - I really hope I'm pronouncing that correctly - is that character might actually be a thread. If this film actually is the first of a trilogy, and there is so much room for it to actually happen, even if it's not Natasha Romanoff (Black Widow doesn't have to be Natasha Romanoff), so there could be some way to actually tie them together.
Mon: So we conclude our talk about the characters with the most enigmatic figure of them all - Taskmaster. If I'm not wrong, the promotional images and footage of Taskmaster were very late in the game.
Ron: Oh really?
Mon: I think Marvel were holding back with this figure. I have to say what a presence!
Ron: I really love Taskmaster. I love the aesthetic, I love what they do. I love everything that we find out about them. There's a lot of suspense around the character. It’s very ominous. I thought it was a lot of fun. I know a lot of people have not reacted the same way.
Mon: Oh, really?
Ron: A lot of people have very different reasons for not liking the Taskmaster character. They definitely haven't had the reaction you and I had.
Mon: That’s interesting.
Ron: Yeah. I thought Taskmaster was fun, because the action sequences that Taskmaster has are outstanding.
Mon: Yeah, and there's a reason why…
Ron: Yes.
Mon: Which we can only mention during the spoilery bit.
Ron: Yeah.
So, we've got a whole bunch of really fun characters, a really good story for Black Widow, who has been sidelined throughout the Avengers films, and who is now dead in the main continue (sigh). This is a really interesting story, the action sequences were out of this world. I honestly would say that Black Widow has the best action sequences in the Marvel Universe at the moment. They felt very real, mainly because they weren't superpowered that much, and I thoroughly enjoyed myself from start to finish. It was a great experience.
Mon: I definitely loved a lot of this film. I did have a few issues with the pacing, but in general, I'm so glad it got made. What took you so long, Marvel?
Ron: We could have really done with this film at the start of the pandemic. Really Marvel.
Ron: So, are we ready to go into the spoilery section?
Mon: Let's do this.
Ron: Okay, so, spoilers. Did you have any favorite moments?
Mon: Anything with Black Widow and Yelena was amazing.
Ron: Absolutely. The banter between the two of them in the car chase scene. They are sniping and irritating each other, all while being shot at and chased through the streets of Budapest. Fab!
Mon: There's something so natural about the way these two characters interact with each other. It reminded me so much of T’Challa and Shuri, it was so fun because you know there’s this sibling rivalry which is happening, and it just comes across. So yeah, those two were way too much fun.
And their initial action scene together? Oh, wow. You felt it. I love that sort of practical fight scene. We don't get that enough in Marvel. When the Russo brothers introduced that in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, it was so good. I love the action sequences in Winter Soldier. And Black Widow, as you mentioned, because we're talking about a spy-assassin, because we're talking about people who feel they have to use their wits and their own skills to survive, you feel that practical, hand to hand combat.
Ron: It’s really well-choreographed. Like, from the beginning, we just see brilliant action sequences. The pacing for the action sequences are really good, as well. It never felt like anybody was waiting too long for somebody to punch. They were coming in hard and fast and you felt like these were trained assassins who aren't going to hold back. And that's exactly what this movie is about. So, it really worked. I thought it was so slick, I enjoyed them thoroughly.
Mon: Yeah, definitely the action sequences were our favorite moments. Because one of the things is the action over here, there weren't that many jump cuts in between. There weren’t these haphazard edits which made you wonder what's happening. You knew who and what they were doing. Why they were fighting, how they were fighting.
Ron: And even if they used Steadicam, I didn't notice it, so I'm very relieved.
Mon: I guess you can't talk about the action sequences without mentioning Taskmaster.
Ron: Absolutely.
Mon: So, Taskmaster, who is this helmeted, enigmatic, Darth Vader and Winter Soldier-like villain, they have the ability to mimic any person that they see. That first fight with Black Widow, where Taskmaster is using Black Widow’s own moves against her? So good! And then every other time that you see Taskmaster, they are using one of the signature moves of the different Avengers. You spend more time saying ‘they just copied this one’! ‘They just copied the Black Panther’. ‘They just copied the Winter Soldier’. I honestly love that because those are the kinds of throwbacks which, they aren't in your face, they are part of the story, but they’re still a throwback. I love it.
Ron: And it is so relevant because Black Widow has been fighting alongside these people, and suddenly, everything that she knows is being held against her. So, where does she go? And I like the fact that, at the end of the day, it comes back to Black Widow’s own humanity, which she fought so hard to get, that she uses to save the day. And that's kind of what the Avengers are about.
So, let's talk about that big reveal. In the comics, apparently, Taskmaster is somebody completely different. In this movie, Taskmaster is revealed to me Dreykov’s daughter, Antonia, and she's played by Olga Kurylenko, who was a Bond girl. So, I love the fact that she gets to be a Marvel villain now who is eventually saved at the end. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of her. Apparently, the internet is not happy. It's not that they're unhappy that Taskmaster is a woman. It's more that she doesn't get to speak, and the fact that we don't get to see her till the last third of the film.
Now I understand why they did that. It makes the film that much more interesting. It makes the reveal that much more impactful, because throughout the movie, Natasha Romanoff is devastated by the fact that she thought she'd killed Dreykov, and she used Dreykov’s daughter as a way to understand how to kill him. As far as Black Widow knew, she’d actually actively killed Antonia, and that's kind of what was playing on her mind, and it's something that her family does use against her.
Mon: Well, it's not the first time we've heard about Dreykov's daughter. Loki mentions that in The Avengers, it's the red in her ledger.
Ron: So, the whole Budapest thing that everybody's been talking about for so many years since The Avengers first came out, we get that explanation here. Clint Barton is mentioned, and I'm kind of glad that it's not just about him saving Black Widow. This was basically her way of proving to S.H.I.E.L.D. that she was ready to defect and become a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent. But it was also a way for her to actually free herself because Dreykov was the one who was running the Red Room. Unfortunately, Antonia ended up being collateral damage, and it's obviously been playing on Black Widow’s mind forever.
So, she's kind of relieved, in a way, that Antonia is alive, but she's a shell of a person. She's completely controlled by her father. There's a chip in her brain. She doesn't exist. She's just a weapon, and I can understand why people would not be happy about that. It didn't bother me that much because I don't know that much about Taskmaster. Maybe if I was coming in with a lot more knowledge, it would have been very different.
Mon: But then I think it plays into those 90’s action movies. It's also similar to the Winter Soldier. Granted, he's a little bit more loquacious than Taskmaster is, but it's very, very similar, so I'm not surprised that the Red Room would end up producing someone who is basically a killing machine, quite like the Winter Soldier program. I mean, it makes sense.
Ron: And obviously, Antonia, was damaged in some way or the other, which is what allowed her father to be able to insert this chip and control her. I felt a little bit better once Black Widow had actually deconditioned Antonia, and it felt like there was a connection between them. Because the first thing Antonia asks her is: “is he gone”. And you can see that the whole thing, everything that she's had to do all this while, like all the other Widows, has been conditioning, chemical conditioning from Dreykov.
Mon: I think that's how Taskmaster is a successful character. If she had been Dreykov's only weapon, that would have been one thing, but Dreykov uses the same conditioning on all the Widows. In fact, the movie even has a scene where Yelena is under the same conditioning. So, he's not doing anything different. Yes, it's hideous that he's doing it to his own daughter but he's a bad guy, he's horrible. So, that's the whole point. Also, it would have been a problem had Antonia been killed at the end of the film because this is an innocent. Whatever she's had to do, her story parallels Black Widow’s. It's just that she's never had a voice, she never escaped. Now she has. And that's where the potential for more stories with these characters really comes in.
Ron: I got Ghost vibes, Ghost from Ant-Man and the Wasp. You feel like this is somebody who has had to do things because of circumstances, not because they want to. And at the end of it, they do get saved and you feel like, if we do meet them again, they will be allied to the good guys, if not a good guy themselves. So, it makes think, this film has really set up a whole other side of the universe, there could definitely be more films, even with or without Black Widow.
Mon: I agree with you. By the end of the film, Black Widow has actually freed one group of Widows. Yelena is out. Melina is out. Red Guardian is out—that’s Alexei. And Taskmaster is out. These people are now free. They already have a mission. The last thing that Black Widow does is tell Yelena that yes, she has the names of all these people who are in the Widow program around the globe. This could be a Disney Plus series, or it could be part two and three of Black Widow, preferably with Black Widow in it. I can really see this as being a trilogy.
Even though there is an end credit scene which is set after Avengers: Endgame, possibly after The Falcon and the Winter Soldier as well, but end credits can be anywhere. The end credits scene for Captain America: The Winter Soldier didn't have a direct connection to the next Marvel film, because Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were already Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, whereas we were seeing them at the beginning of their journey. I have to say the ending, really, really made me wish that we could see more of these characters coming together, either in a trilogy or a Disney Plus series.
Ron: Yeah, because we got this family for Black Widow. We didn't know anything about them. And then, in the beginning of the film, we see this young girl and her little sister and their parents and they seem very close and look like an all-American family, except we quickly learn that they're actually Russian spies. So, they had been transported from Russia, from the Red Room to Ohio in the 90s, and they were living this perfectly normal suburban life. And it was back to the Red Room after that. And for the adults, for Alexie and Melina, that was fine because that's the world that they knew, but for little Natasha and Yelena, that was not okay. Natasha had already been through the Red Room and she was getting a taste of freedom, and now she had to go back. And Yelena was so small that she had no memory of all this. And as we go through the film, we realize that the two children had been taken from their actual families. And then when we come back to it, they're adults, they meet up, this pseudo-family that don't have any connections, but they've all, in their own way, felt that their little family unit was real.
It makes the events of Avengers: Endgame that much more frustrating. Like, just in Endgame when we know that Black Widow is saying that the Avengers are her family, and that was hard enough, because you're like, you know what, Hawkeye had a family, and they're gone, and that's sad, but maybe he should be the one to sacrifice himself anyway. And now we're learning that Black Widow basically had two families, and she sacrificed herself? That doesn't make sense!
Mon: Yeah, I agree that watching this film made me hate Black Widow’s demise even more.
Ron: And I'm also frustrated that we've had 10 years or so of this character and they botched her arc so many times. Her introduction in Iron Man 2, not great. The Avengers, don't even talk about it. Avengers: Age of Ultron? Bleurgh.
Mon: I love how this film sort of ran with some of the more problematic elements of Age of Ultron, which is basically, you know, the sterilization in the Red Room, and how it's so different when you have two female characters actually talking about it instead of some weird male writer writing it in this fashion, which is problematic. This movie does have a writer, but it just, it was so funny. It's this dark humor that can only be told by people who have sort of made peace with whatever happened.
Ron: Yeah, I think it does help that there were women writing the story and directing it. That just makes a huge difference.
Mon: Yeah.
Ron: But I'm still frustrated, because this is a really good film, and it gave me the Black Widow that I have really wanted for a while now, and we're getting it now when she's dead!
Mon: This version of Black Widow is the one that deserved to have been seen for the last 10 years. She's resilient, she's funny, she has a really big heart. She's a person and a character, which honestly, she hasn't been able to be in most of the films. It’s disappointing that it's come so far, it's like the 24th movie or something in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which is why I think I crave more.
Ron: Well, there's so much possibility for more. The second and third film, if there were a trilogy, could still have Black Widow in it because there are years between Civil War and Infinity War. She could have been doing lots of stuff with her family!
Mon: Precisely, that's my thinking as well.
Ron: And the thing is we do need some conclusion for the Widows. There are so many of them. We know that there are people who need to be saved. Yelena now has the information to do that. She has a whole bunch of people, as well as Taskmaster, who can help her do this. There is so much story potential. Of course, we’re still waiting because nothing's been mentioned.
So, let's talk about that end-end credits scene. We see Yelena at Black Widow’s grave. She just got her sister back and she's gone again. We don't actually know whether Yelena was dusted during the events of Infinity War. I don't think that actually makes a difference. Whether she had that time with Black Widow or not doesn't matter, she's still going to be grieving. And then she's visited by Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, who’s played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Now, the thing is, because Black Widow was slated for early 2020, this was actually supposed to be Valentina's introduction into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Because the film got pushed back, we met her in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I think that made more sense.
Mon: Yeah.
Ron: What were they thinking? Because the introduction here, we don’t get to know anything about her. We get her first name. We kind of get the idea that Yelena is working with her or for her. There's some discussion about raises and salaries. Apparently, neither of them is getting paid as much as they should. But, in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, we got to know a little bit more. It does sound a bit like she's playing everybody against the middle? Because she gives Yelena her new assignment, which is hunting down the person who was responsible for Yelena’s sister's death, and apparently that's Hawkeye?
Mon: Yeah, that was like, how does she even know that?
Ron: Was she on Vormir?
Mon: Yeah, it’s gonna be interesting to see if Yelena turns up on the Hawkeye show. I'd like that. Also interesting to see where they take Valentina’s character because right now, she's just a famous name who is the catalyst for some stuff, but she's not doing anything. I feel like she's the Thanos of Phase Four where she's being built up to be something greater than the sum of her parts.
Ron: I kind of hope that isn't the case, mainly because we have had so few female characters in the Marvel universe. There seems to be this natural progression towards making them the bad guys. We saw that with Karli Morgenthau. Why was she the bad guy? I just don't get it. It seems like Loki has also done something similar. We need female heroes; stop making them bad guys!
Mon: Well, I don't think Valentina is going to be a good guy, that's for sure.
Ron: That's frustrating, but still, it opens the door for who knows what kinds of stories. I'm actually really surprised at how much I enjoyed this film. Again, it comes back to the same thing. Don’t watch all the trailers and the featurettes, and look at all the GIFS or read the reviews. Because they take away a lot of the fun of these films. The thing about something like the Marvel Universe is that we know what it is, we already know these characters. We're going into it with a fair amount of knowledge.
Mon: I don't actually understand why Marvel is so obsessed with putting out so much promotional material. This is Marvel, you are going to get ticket sales, or in this case, Disney plus subscriptions. It's just going to happen, so why bother? I feel like there's so much discourse prior to a film coming out that it might color a lot of people's views when they actually watch the film or TV show. You know who Black Widow is, go in there, enjoy yourself, have fun.
I'm suitably relieved that I didn't hate this film. I'm sorry, it was a low bar. I was really worried because Marvel has not tried. They're waking up now, 10 years later, it's like yes, the ladies and the people of color are going to get an opportunity. Really? Were they just non-existent for the last 10 years? So, it's very frustrating. And I think that comes through when I talk about these things, but I'm happy they’re actually making these moves. We have a lady directing this, the story is also co-written by a lady, and it makes a difference. There's a very strong female presence in the cast, as well, not just the good guys but also bad guys, there's also the Widows, so there are fight scenes there. It’s kind of awesome. It is!
Again, as I said, I'm not 100% yes, this is the greatest movie ever. I do have my problems, but I feel like when I watch it again, and that's gonna happen, I'm probably going to love it a whole lot more.
Ron: Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I'm so glad it's finally out and we can see it, and we get to see a bunch of badass female characters. I wish it hadn’t taken this long, but you know what, at least we've got it. And I hope that the critical reception is good around this film because Marvel does not need an excuse. Actually, nobody needs an excuse to stop making female superhero movies. We need more! Check out Black Widow. We had fun. What did you think about it? We'd love to find out!
Ron: You can find us on Twitter @Stereo_Geeks. Or send us an email [email protected]. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And see you next week!
Mon: The Stereo Geeks logo was created using Canva. The music for our podcast comes courtesy Audionautix.
[Continuum by Audionautix plays]
Transcription by Otter.ai, Ron, and Mon.