This is Part 2 of the episode transcript. Read Part 1 here.
For a more detailed look at the show, check out Ron’s extensive recaps at Show Snob.
You can also learn more about the show’s successes and failures with Mon’s features at Collider:
Falcon and the Winter Soldier: How the Flag-Smashers Highlight Marvel's Problem with Sympathetic Villains
Mon: Quite a sea change, right, from Episode 3?
Ron: For the most part, ‘The Whole World is Watching’ kind of follows the similar levity, the tone, of the previous episode. We got to the Dora Milaje, which is really exciting because we weren't expecting any of the Wakandan references in The Falcon and Winter Soldier. And it was great that from the second episode, Bucky was talking about being in Wakanda. He tells Sam that his name is actually White Wolf, and Sam is actually surprised because he's like, ‘wait what, they named you something?’ And then we get to see Ayo. And she's not happy.
I like the fact that there's an immediate connection with the events of Civil War. King T’Chaka was extremely important, he was king of Wakanda for so long. And the way he was taken from them was so arbitrary. And, of course, Zemo was at fault. But it's kind of part of the reason why you see in Black Panther that T’Challa doesn't really want to be going out there, because look what happened when they outside, right? But of course, everything with Killmonger makes him realize that outside Wakanda’s walls is a world that needs their resources. And we see a little bit of that here, with Ayo coming to meet Bucky and actually speaking to him about handing Zemo over.
What I really like is that Bucky and Ayo have the kind of relationship where Bucky can say, ‘I need this guy, he's a means to an end. Give me a little bit more time, then you can have him’. And Ayo is like, ‘Okay, I understand where you're coming from. You’re the White Wolf. You've been in Wakanda, we've seen what you went through, I can give you this time. But then after that, you have to stick to that deadline’. I love that Bucky’s connection with Wakanda is kind of explored in the show, because he was there for a long time, and they made such a difference to his life. They deconditioned him.
Mon: I felt like the level of trust between Ayo and Bucky was quite obvious between the two characters. And also the fact that they've obviously had a kind of professional connection for a long time in Wakanda. Ayo is a very strong warrior. After Okoye, there's probably nobody better. So, it seems like the Wakandans had placed a lot of emphasis on Ayo keeping an eye on Bucky when he was deconditioning. So, as you see in the beginning of this episode, she's the one who is there for the last test to make sure that, yes, the programming is gone. Because if the programming wasn't, then Ayo would at least be able to fight off the Winter Soldier. So, I really like that beginning, and the fact that that's not the only time we see the Dora Milaje. They come back later, so that's good.
This episode is a lot slower in pace. It feels kind of like a filler episode, because a lot of it could have been part of the previous and the next episodes, but it wasn't.
Again, Zemo he feels like the smartest guy in the room, but you get the feeling that with Sam and Bucky they're getting a bit tetchy now. They feel a bit close to the prize, they have a deadline looming and Zemo is just antagonizing them. One of my biggest issues with this episode was that Bucky and Sam don't obviously use their brains too much. They just go headfirst into stuff, whereas Zemo, he very calmly and coolly gets information because he's using his brains.
Ron: Clearly Steve Rogers was 90% of their impulse control.
Mon: Sure seems like it, because when they go into the refugee camp, looking for Karli Morgenthau, who is the primary antagonist of the series, they just go in there asking. Everybody knows who Sam Wilson is, everybody knows who Bucky Barnes is. Nobody is going to answer your questions. It's Zemo who gets the answers they're looking for. I think it’s really frustrating when you watch them doing silly things like that, because you're like, ‘they're smarter than that, surely’.
Ron: I could still maybe excuse Bucky, because he hasn't been Bucky in a long time. He's really just has been pulled into fights. But Sam has had to be tactical, so for him to kind of just go in there and try and ask questions, it doesn't make sense, because Sam is very sympathetic person, and he wants to understand why Karli is doing the things that she's doing. It just doesn't make sense the way they went about it in this episode.
Mon: That's true. I like the fact that Sam kind of tries his level best to see the best in Karli. When he finally talks to her, he tries to engage with her, but then again, there's this moment in there when John Walker and Lemar Hoskins, sort of barge in and interrupt Karli and Sam. And you're like, ‘but Bucky was standing in the doorway, stopping them. What happened? Like how did these two normal humans with one shield between them, push through a metal-armed supersoldier. It doesn't make sense sometimes.
Ron: It felt like there was a moment that wasn't shown to us. And I don't know why they would have done that because it does leave you with a lot of questions.
Mon: Yeah, it's like, did they convince Bucky that Sam was in danger? Did they convince Bucky that Sam was stupid? [Laughs] Like what like what did they do? Or did they do the whole Marty McFly thing?
Ron [Laughs]: And why would Bucky fall for that?
Mon: So, it really makes me wonder about some of the writing moments in this entire series.
I feel like this episode was going one way, and then suddenly Lemar Hoskins is killed, and the entire tone changes. Because not only is Lemar killed, and you really feel for John because Lemar is basically John's Bucky. Right? I mean if John was Steve Rogers that's exactly how we would have viewed the whole thing. And we know the kind of lengths that Steve has gone to, to save Bucky—in all three films. So, you see this, but then John just takes it a whole new level. And them sort of showing you how he kills this innocent Flag-Smasher—the same Flag-Smasher who earlier had said that he had looked up to Captain America—and now he's being killed by Captain America, the poetic irony of that is so horrible. And the fact that John is ruthless.
A lot of this episode is also about the parallels between John and Sam. So, where Sam is immediately not interested in the supersoldier serum, John, on the other hand, has a conversation with Lemar and then decides to take it.
Ron: But you can see from the very beginning that he's tempted by it. And then when he has that dust up with the Dora Milaje, who are just trained soldiers, they don't have any serum running through their blood, but they make chutney out of him. And he's shocked that these people just easily took him and Lemar down. That's when he really started thinking that there is no way that he can continue being Captain America if he doesn't have something extra.
Mon: Yeah, and I think that they didn't build up the fact that there is insecurity in John Walker. There are a few scenes where he's talking about he's not sure about this. He seems to be suggesting that some of that medals that he earned, he’s not proud of them, because of the actions that he took. We never are privy to what those were, and we don't need to be. We understand that these are burdens that weigh heavily on this man. But I feel like his relationship with the supersoldier serum, his relationship with the icon that is Captain America could have been built out more.
Ron: Yeah.
Mon: Just so that we understood this character as more than the guy who stole Steve’s shield.
Ron: In the first two episodes, it seemed like he was just an ordinary soldier who's very happy to be defending the world as Captain America. You get these moments where he's trying to push his boundaries with people, especially with Bucky and Sam. He wants to be Captain America, and he wants, other people to fall in line with him. When Bucky and Sam don't do that then he's just like, ‘then don't get in my way’. It's very Black and white with him. Those moments happen fairly often, but in ‘The Whole World is Watching’ it felt like there was a lot more to him than just that. The way he's vacillating between whether he should continue letting Sam speak to Karli, or whether he should actually go in there and arrest her—he's so restless. He can't stand still, he's getting more and more agitated. These are not the reactions of somebody who should be getting the shield. But we don't really know why that is. And then once he gets the serum, and you see him kill the Flag-Smasher, you get the inkling that, okay, this man maybe should not have been given the all clear in his psych eval.
Mon: That's completely correct because when we start off the fifth Episode, ‘Truth’, we begin to realize that this is true. The truth is that he probably did not pass his psyche eval. By the way that John is trying to convince himself that, yes, he was in the right for killing this innocent Flag-Smasher, it's just frightening because that man, while he was dying was literally saying, ‘I'm innocent. I didn't do it’, and here's John standing there on his own, saying, ‘no, no, I was completely right, you know, he had to die’.
Ron: It's like he's convinced himself. And later on, in ‘Truth’, when he actually goes to speak to Lemar’s parents, they're obviously very very upset. They know John. These boys have most likely grown up together, because the parents, they are so loving towards John. And then they're like ‘the person you killed, he's the one who did this to our son?’ And John says ‘yes’. And I was just like, ‘did you just lie to these parents?’ I mean, on the one hand, you're like, what's he gonna say, he can't possibly tell them, ‘No I killed some other random dude and the actual person who killed your son, she's still out there.’ That's not what you want to tell grieving parents. But on the other hand, bare-facedly lying to people in grief, people who love you. I was just like, ‘wow this guy's off the deep end’.
Mon: Yeah, the fight scene that ensues right after the killing of the Flag-Smasher, is another reminder that this guy is not to be trifled with. Because he doesn't seem to have a moral code. His aim in life is to prove that he is Captain America. And I think that's the biggest problem with John. It parallels Sam's own reservations, right? He was stepping into somebody else's shoes. He was carrying somebody else’s shield. Hence, he was the better man who decided against picking up that mantle, because it didn't feel like it was his. John's been given this, and he was big-headed enough to believe that he deserved it. And we seem to see that there is a reason why these two characters are at opposing ends, and why one seems to deserve the shield over the other.
Ron: I would have liked to get some inkling of who John Walker was before Captain America came anyway near him. Because, especially in ‘Truth’, the way he keeps insisting, ‘I am Captain America’, it's almost like he's convincing himself, because maybe somewhere in the recesses of his mind he's realized what he just did, that's not the Captain America thing to do.
And of course, in the middle of it all, grief is in the mix. Lemar, obviously, was a huge part of his existence, and for him to die like that, it’s affected him. But him having taken the supersoldier serum, it's messed up a lot of what is already wrong with him.
What we know is that he did what he had to do as a soldier. He didn't like it, those acts have weighed very heavily on his mind, which is again making me wonder, how did he get chosen to be Captain America? Because this is not a man who sleeps soundly at night.
Watching the events of ‘The Whole World is Watching’ and the aftermath in ‘Truth’, you can see why Steve decided not to give Bucky the shield. He chose Sam, because from what we see in The Falcon and The Winter Soldier, John is as messed up as Bucky. But the government decided to give him the shield, and this is what's happened.
Mon: Bucky literally says in ‘The Whole World is Watching’ that John is crazy, and he knows that because he is crazy.
Ron: Exactly. And there are now dead people.
Mon: Exactly. And one of the things that Sebastian Stan mentioned about Bucky, in the first film Captain America: The First Avenger, is that in his reading of Bucky, in some of the comic runs, he felt like Steve was the good guy, the morally high ground kind of guy. So, some of the dirty deeds were actually done by Bucky. So, as we see in Captain America: The First Avenger, Steve's going around knocking people with his shield, but Bucky’s the one with the sniper rifle. Bucky’s doing the dirty deeds, saving Captain America from that. The reason is that Captain America has clean hands. With John, he's already come in with dirty hands, and the adage that to be Captain America, you have to be a good man, everything you know about Sam Wilson tells us that he is one.
What we know of Sam, when he was part of the Project Falcon, is that he wasn't going around shooting people. For John and Bucky, will have the parallel that they were already killers. Bucky was a killer before he became the Winter Soldier.
Ron; Which is probably why he was such a good Winter Soldier.
Mon: That’s probably true. With ‘Truth’, all these truths come out and it's just so disturbing. Especially in the first fight scene when Sam and Bucky, who have been fighting for the shield, are literally at the receiving end of it. That fight scene was very reminiscent of the fight between Bucky, Steve and Tony in Captain America: Civil War. But, wow, this one is so brutal, like you can feel those punches.
Ron: I liked what they were doing here because you immediately know that in Civil War, those three were holding back because Steve and Tony were friends, Bucky knew that they were friends, so nobody was actually trying to murder each other. Here, it's not like that. Bucky and Sam are trying to protect each other, but John is trying to save his own bacon. He does not want his shield to be taken away, he does not want to lose being Captain America. And the way he fights for it, as you said, It's brutal.
Mon: Yeah.
Ron: He's not afraid to hurt these two.
Mon: Bucky can at least take it because he's a supersoldier. But poor Sam!
Ron: My gosh that poor land, he does get a beating, doesn't he?
Mon: Yeah. And he keeps getting back up, and he’s so deft with his wings, he uses them to perfection.
Ron: We haven't actually seen that kind of wing fighting in the MCU. He usually used his wings just to fly about. But the wings over here, they work so brilliantly. And the fact that he can get hit and still keep coming back. I thought that was really commendable, because he's just an ordinary guy. And even after that, he still doesn't want the serum.
One of the other aspects of the shield that, well, you probably didn't have to talk about it that much, but it was implied, is that the shield is the last remaining part of Steve Roger. So for Sam and Bucky, the shield is kind of sentimental in a way. And after John kills the Flag-Smasher with the shield, it’s the first time we see blood on the shield, and that's quite a striking and kind of a gory image.
What I liked in ‘Truth’ was that once Sam and Bucky, after having been beat down so many times and finally Sam's got the shield back; you see him kind of wiping the blood off the shield. That was such a touching moment. I like those bits.
Mon: That fight scene was really good because not only was it beautifully choreographed, but it really worked hard to develop character. And I think it's so hard because we do watch the shows and these films for the action, but sometimes the action just feels overlong and gratuitous. But this one, this particular fight scene, it did a lot to tell us so much about these characters. And I really appreciated the fact that even though we’re on the penultimate episode of the series, they were working hard to tell us something new about these people.
Ron: Yeah. So you have all these things happening and they kind of just have to give up. And there’s this really nice long sequence when they're in Louisiana. Then the tone completely changes with Sam going back to Louisiana to sister, and the two of them trying to fix the boat and then Bucky turns up, and you're like, ‘why are you here?’ I don't want to hang out together, but they do hang out together. And they're fixing the boat and you need those kinds of interludes. With the Marvel films, you don't have the time for that. You only really have two hours for the story and action. With a TV series you’ve got that time. It's basically a six-hour long movie so you've got a lot of time for that character building. And it's kind of sweet to see Sam and Bucky just trying to get closer to each other, but also accepting the fact that the reason why they’re connected is gone. So, it works.
You also get this very long montage of Sam learning how to use the shield. And you see him training and stuff, not all of it worked for me.
Mon: Oh really?
Ron: Yeah because, why do we need to see Sam training? He’s a soldier. He's already well-built, it makes sense to see him train with the shield because it's Vibranium, it's not made to be caught by a normal person. So it does take him a bit of practice, but him doing, you know, the whole Rocky montage sequence, it didn't quite make sense. Because he’s already there. It's just that this one specific skill he needs to work on. But by the end of it you know what's going to happen. We just don't know how it's going to happen.
So then we go into the finale, ‘One Word One People’. And that's the motto of the Flag-Smashers. I guess they're a Marvel villain. I'm actually surprised that in the six episodes they weren’t as well constructed as they should have been.
Karli Morgenthau is a villain ™. There's no reason why she should be. The Flag-Smashers’ goal is to bring the world together without boundaries, as it was during the days the Blip. And for that reason they're bad people? And the show kind of makes it so that we feel like that because Karli randomly blows up people. And yes, these are strategic targets, but the victims are just ordinary people just doing their jobs. And there's no reason why she has to do it. I think that with the Flag-Smashers the show really struggled. And I would say, it kind of failed.
Mon: Especially in the final episode, it seemed like the showrunners just want to double down on the fact that the Flag-Smashers are bad, you shouldn't be rooting for them. I think we were really let down by those characters, and their entire arc. They sort of all died and then that was it.
Ron: Yeah, especially because, think of the optics. You have Karli Morgenthau, who’s played by Erin Kellyman, who’s a biracial Black woman, and she's the bad guy? And she's the bad guy for wanting to bring the world together. It just doesn't look right. And had we had a bit more time to understand them, maybe we could have felt something, but you're just like, ‘why are you telling me how to feel about these people?’ And it really did feel like that.
Mon: Because Sam believes in her and believes that she's got good in her, but nothing she does seems that way. Aside from the first Episode where they were seemingly ferrying vaccines to refugee camps. After that she really went downhill.
Ron: It was 0-100.
Mon: Yeah. Again, with Marvel villains, it's always like that.
Ron: And it doesn't make sense for this particular group to be like that, which was frustrating.
Mon: I felt like, with Karli, maybe if she'd had more screen time or some better writing, if we had understood her anger along with her goal and her mission. It’s just that she kept telling us that these people are terrible, these things that they're doing are terrible, we just didn't have enough background or context for why she's feeling this way, and why she's feeling such animosity that she's going around killing innocent people.
Ron: Yeah.
Mon: In that sense I would say the finale fell flat.
Ron: Yeah, I mean the rest of the action was fantastic, absolutely brilliant. Sam, having the Falcon wings, and the shield and fighting with both of them, it looked so good. We haven't seen action like that. I don't know how they shot it, but it looked really great.
Mon: And his costume is so close to the comic book, and it works.
Ron: Yeah.
Mon: It really works. I kind of wish we'd seen Sam and Bucky fighting together. That was the only thing I really really missed because Bucky goes off on his own, and after some time he is working with US Agent, well John Walker, before he’s US Agent. But Sam's off on his own for the most part. And while he's really smart, and he's really good as Captain America, I just wanted to see them fight side by side.
Ron: Yeah, that would have been nice. And Sharon Carter kind of comes in, but she doesn't really do much. And you're like, ‘why is she holding back?’ Then we find out that she's actually the Power Broker. There were rumors from like two, three episodes ago that she might be. I don't know how to feel about this. On the one hand, I get it. She's upset. She has been abandoned, she's lost everything she knew. Of course, she's going to do whatever she can to get some power. On the other hand, really?
Mon: It doesn't sit right with me.
Ron: It seems really unfair to Sharon Carter.
Mon: Yeah. There are so few women characters in the MCU, as it is, and you've got one good person, Sharon, she's a bad guy?
And also, we don't know the depths that the Power Broker has gone to, we don't know how powerful the Power Broker is. So, it's hard to gauge, just how scared we should be of Sharon's transformation.
Ron: With Sharon and whatever trajectory she's on and Karli, having been killed. I wonder why there's this dichotomy between who gets redemption and who doesn't. The Winter Soldier really did mess up a lot of things. But somehow, Bucky is getting to live a life. And by the end of the series, he's pretty much with the Wilsons now, he's part of the family. But Karli has to have died.
Mon: Well, the only difference between Karli and the Winter Soldier is that Bucky didn't have much of a choice in what he did as the Winter Soldier. So, in that case, he can be forgiven. He was literally brainwashed, he did not have any control over it, so I can understand that dichotomy, that's fine. But I just don't understand the evolution of Sharon. Because Karli I felt like they really wanted us to care about this character but they never wrote her as someone we should care about. But Sharon, she's a comic book character who we all are familiar with. She's always been Captain America's girlfriend. And she's been on the right side of Marvel comic books. So, for her to evolve into somebody who could potentially be a huge threat, that's the only worrying part. And we will be seeing her again?
Ron: Well, apparently, there's going to be a second season for the show. Captain America 4 is also happening with Anthony Mackie as Captain America. I don't know whether we will see the character from this show turn up in the movie, but the second season, we could see more of Sharon Carter, maybe even more of Zemo, and the Countess, played by Julia Louis-Dreyfuss, which was a surprise I guess?
I don't know, people were making like a big deal about it, and I was just like, ‘why wouldn't you be in a Marvel role?’ Her kids are probably really excited about it?
Mon: I feel like that part of it is going to be interesting, but it's never going to be the compelling pull for me, because for me, I just want to see Sam and Bucky being Sam and Bucky. I want to see them evolving and growing and just hanging out together. Action, fight scenes that's what we got this season. We saw Sam grow; we saw Bucky grow. We saw them come together; come closer. I just really like that.
And in the end when the title card changes from The Falcon and The Winter Soldier to Captain America and The Winter Soldier, I was squealing with glee.
Ron: Yeah, and that's what we were wondering from the beginning of the show right? Why isn't it Captain America and The Winter Soldier, well, now we know why.
I still don't know why he still the Winter Soldier, though? Is he gonna reclaim that name? Maybe, who knows?
But yeah, this show was interesting because it gives us more of two characters who we do care about who haven't had the opportunity to grow in the films. So yes, they needed this platform. But the other characters like John, now he’s US Agent, how come he's not in prison, I still don't know. But for some reason he's out there. Sharon, really, I just don't understand why they've had to go in to make her a bad guy mode.
The character I am excited for is Joaquin Torres, played by Danny Ramirez. Joaquin is from the comics. He's Falcon in the comics. His design in the comics that I've read are kinda creepy.
Mon: Oh!
Ron: Yeah, because he's an actual like part Falcon.
Mon: Ugh, I really hope he doesn't turn into a part Falcon.
Ron: I hope they don't go with that design either. But we did see him kind of get the suit from Sam, so maybe he will become Falcon. I do love him geeking out over Sam from the very first episode. It's very sweet, and it's a really nice way to introduce a character.
We haven't been able to talk about Isaiah Bradley, played by Carl Lumbly. Isaiah Bradley is a character from the comics.
Mon: So, Isaiah was introduced in a limited comic run, where he was part of a regiment of Black soldiers who were experimented on. And when the government decided to abandon them, he stole the Captain America suit and tried to save them. And for his efforts, he was unfortunately imprisoned and experimented on even more. His story in the TV show is a little bit different. In fact, the way they've written his character and his actions, parallel Steve's. It’s exactly the way he tried to save Bucky and his regiment. It's really heartbreaking, especially because we know about the Tuskegee Airmen who were also kind of forgotten by history, and a lot of Isaiah’s story is based on those forgotten heroes.
I am so glad that after that little snippet that we saw in the second episode, he did come back and his story was expanded on and Sam’s connection with Isaiah was also expanded. And that was really good because I was a little bit confused initially as Bucky he knew him, and he dragged Sam there and Isaiah was really upset. He seemed to be agitated at the sight of Bucky. I was thinking like, ‘what is Bucky doing?’ But the last two episodes where Sam meets Isaiah, I feel like he was able to form a sort of bond with him. And in the final episode he really seemed to thaw that cold heart of his.
Ron: Yeah, I felt like Sam meeting Isaiah gave him the impetus to become Captain America, even though Isaiah didn't want him to take on the mantle. So, Sam had a lot to think about. And it was good to get that other perspective, because for Sam, getting the Captain America shield from John Walker was really important. But why Isaiah and people like Isaiah would not want Sam to take on a mantle that was imbedded in oppression did make sense, but in the end, it was Sam's choice. It will be interesting to see how the fourth film explores what it means for Sam to actually be Captain America.
Through Isaiah we also get Eli, his grandson, and in the comics, Eli is Patriot, who is also part of Sam's group. So, maybe, Elijah Richardson who was playing, Eli has hinted that maybe there’s a future for his character. Who knows.
A lot of people are really excited because it seems like the makings of the Young Avengers has been in the works. A lot of the characters have been introduced by now, but who knows, we haven't got any confirmation yet. Let's not get excited. But it'll be great to see something like that.
On the whole, this show was surprisingly enjoyable. It was a bit darker than I expected. I really did think that it would be more bantery and fun. I didn't mind the dark bits. I think they worked well. Certain characters worked better for me—Isaiah was definitely a highlight. I love Sam and his sister Sarah. The glimpses we got of the Dora Milaje were lots of fun. Bucky, initially, I really wasn't sure about him, but it got a lot better. Sharon, she's doing a good job with what she's got. But I don't know what the future holds. I really wish it wasn't in the darker direction that it's apparently going.
John Walker, it looks like that guy's gonna be hanging around. He's probably going to be a thorn in Captain America’s side, that’s for sure. A second season would definitely be welcome. And I think it will be needed. Whereas with WandaVision, it works as a whole. The Falcon and The Winter Soldier, now Captain America and The Winter Soldier, it probably needs a bit more time for some of these characters. But otherwise, surprisingly enjoyable.
Mon: Yeah, I really like the show. I would go as far as to say, I actually really loved it. Yeah, there were some writing issues. And I will admit that yes the villains were under done—they were very formulaic which, honestly, the first episode seemed to suggest that they weren't going to be, so that was really disappointing. But if you came here for Sam and Bucky, you are going to get Sam and Bucky, and they are great; they are fantastic. It seems like Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan seem to be really enjoying playing these characters and fleshing them out, which is great. I mean at the end of it, it seems like the two of them, as characters, have really formed a bond. They seem to have accepted that Bucky is just part of the Wilson family, and it's great because he's been kind of on his own all this while. And for whatever reasons, Steve wasn't able to give him that family feeling, because Steve himself was a man out of time, Sam isn't, so it was really nice to see these characters get a platform, and then really grow into it. I would honestly love to see a second season, I would love to see a second season, and Captain America 4.
Ron: Yeah.
Mon: Because I can't get enough of these characters. So please Marvel, keep at it.
Ron: What did you think of The Falcon and The Winter Soldier? We'd love to hear from you.
You can find us on Twitter @Stereo_Geeks. Or send us an email [email protected]. We hope you enjoyed this Episode. And see you next week!
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Transcription by Otter.ai, Ron, and Mon.